Duke Ellington Talks About Racism in Unknown Short Audio Interview

One could say that Duke Ellington (1899-1974) devoted his entire career to celebrating Black people and Black life in music. But, like many Black musicians of his generation, he was very cautious about discussing racism and civil rights with white hosts on TV and radio.

That’s why it’s of particular interest to hear him talk about his suite Black, Brown and Beige, and then go on to tell about a racist incident that he experienced. This is part of the series that I’ve been sharing with you of interviews conducted by the late Claes Dahlgren for broadcast only on Swedish radio, and never heard elsewhere.

For some of the Dahlgren interviews, including this one, we do not know exactly when it was recorded. What we do know about this one is that the script for the broadcast (Dahlgren’s written narration, etc.) is dated April 17, 1961. And in his narration, which was not necessarily recorded at the same time, Claes says that it is being broadcast two days before Duke’s birthday—in other words, April 27. (Thanks to jazz historian Bo Lindström for the translation.) This does not mean that the narration was recorded on the 27th, only that Claes knew in advance when it would be broadcast and he wrote that into his script.

We also know that Dahlgren usually wrote his scripts very close to the time that the interviews were conducted, and that he was based in New York City. As it happens, members of Duke’s band were performing in Boston April 11-16 and 18-23 at Connolly’s Star Dust Room (1184 Tremont Street). But Duke was not with them. And he was definitely in NYC on April 3 and 4, 1961, making the famous album with Louis Armstrong’s small group. He was in Las Vegas on April 8, but we don’t know where he was on some of the other dates around then. (This kind of information can be gleaned from the massive database called “The Duke Where and When.”) To sum up, the interview is from somewhere between April 3 and April 17, 1961, probably shortly before April 17, and it was broadcast on April 27.

The audio begins with Dahlgren’s short introduction in Swedish, with a vocal recording playing in the background. Ellington then talks for a while (Dahlgren’s questions were edited out). The last minute is Claes summarizing what Duke said, and introducing “Misfit Blues” (that music is not included on this audio). Here it is:

When Duke says that the woman who worked there spoke “like it was read,” he means that it appeared scripted, memorized.

We are able to hear this recording thanks to the generosity of The Claes Dahlgren Collection at The Centre for Swedish Folk Music and Jazz Research (Svenskt visarkiv). I want to personally thank Wictor Johansson, head of the audiovisual collections, and Jörgen Adolfsson, research archivist and musician, for their kind assistance.

Please Note that permission was given Only for the audio to appear in this newsletter—no other copying or publishing of this recording is allowed without prior approval. Let us all please honor this, in which case more interviews will be coming your way. (I promise you that some of them are quite amazing!) In short, do not post the audio of this interview anywhere else—but do feel free to share the link to this page with everyone you know! If you subscribe and you received this by email, just click on Share at the bottom of the email. THANK YOU!

All the best,
Lewis