Ellington: An Unknown Audio Interview with Nat Hentoff, 1953

One day before Ellington’s birthday, here’s something fascinating: This audio interview with Duke has been heard by a few Ellington specialists, but it is still unknown to most people, so I’ve decided to share it with you here, along with my new research on it. As Nat Hentoff says in his introduction, he was then Downbeat's correspondent for Boston “and environs,” and he was asked to interview Duke for his Le Jazz Hot show on FM radio station WLAW. He then thanks Hugh Babb, the swing D.J. of the station (thanks to Larry Crawford for this I.D.), and “the omniscient” someone else (I can’t make out that name).

The label of the 12-inch, 33 rpm acetate recording (essentially a private disc) of the interview, whose audio is shared with us here by jazz historian Steven Lasker, has the handwritten date January 26, 1952. But Nat mentions that Mingus is in the band, and he was only with Duke in early 1953. And research by David Palmquist for the amazing Ellington chronology site shows that Ellington was not in Boston on the 1952 date, but he did play at George Wein’s nightclub Storyville from January 19 through 25, 1953. Besides, Hentoff mentions that Ellington had just finished an engagement at Storyville. So it must have been a year later than the date written, January 26, 1953.

In fact, this interview helps us to determine Mingus’s dates with Duke more precisely than before. His first performance with Duke was January 19, 1953, the opening night of the Storyville gig. (He could have started in the middle of the week—bassist Wendell Marshall had taken a temporary leave to get married—but that seems unlikely.) He stayed with the band until during or just after an Apollo Theater engagement that lasted from February 20 through 26, 1953. Mingus famously got into a big fight with Juan Tizol at the Apollo, and that was the end of his stint with the Ellington band. We don’t know if that happened during the week, or on the last night.

Hentoff begins by asking Duke a question he had “asked the other day,” during the Storyville engagement, about developments in jazz over the years. Duke replies hesitantly and vaguely, and at 1:23 he expresses that he’s “a little annoyed” at having to reconstruct what he said before, when they were not recording. He does then discuss Fletcher Henderson’s career, and the greatness of Louis Armstrong.

At 3:15 Nat asks about the contribution of Jimmie Blanton, who was admired by all modern bass players “from Ray Brown to [Eddie] Safranski to Mingus who’s with you now.” Duke talks about how Blanton was able to play things that were melodic, without losing the “true bass character.” Hentoff laughs at 4:30 and says that Duke was using a “euphemism” for the true low sound of the bass—Duke was apparently pointing down, to indicate his “family jewels,” as they say—and there is laughter of at least one woman in background. After some more discussion, Hentoff brings up Louis Bellson, who was the band’s acclaimed drummer during this time period, and composed pieces for the band as well.

At 7:13, Hentoff mentions a speech by Duke “that went with the citation you received” at “the New England Conservatory [N.E.C.] the other day.” This is not mentioned anywhere in all of the many writings about Duke. Thanks to N.E.C. archivist Maryalice Perrin-Mohr, I have the announcement from the school’s Bulletin (May 1953 issue), which says that Duke “was awarded a citation of merit” on January 26. It also says that “Mr. Ellington spoke briefly, and the Popular Music Orchestra played several of his compositions.”

In fact, N.E.C. was probably the first music conservatory to have a Popular Music Department. (Cecil Taylor was an early student there.) And I wish we could have heard the students play Duke’s music. But if the award was on January 26, the same date as the interview, why does Hentoff say the citation was given “the other day”? Well, Palmquist, who I mentioned above, found that N.E.C.’s own Bulletin was wrong! The Boston Daily Globe (as it was then called) reported on January 22 that Duke would get the award that day:

And on January 23 they published a photo that proves it happened “yesterday”:

So the correct date for the award was January 22. And the last night of the Storyville gig was January 25th, and the interview was recorded on the 26th, which is why Hentoff says that the gig at Storyville ended “the day before.” Phew! It all works out!

Returning to the interview, Hentoff next asks about something that Duke had mentioned at N.E.C., that he writes for specific people, not just for an instrument. This turns out to be a very productive question. Duke expounds on it at length, and he quite rightly points out that even “the old masters” of classical music had to have some idea of their performers’ capabilities. No composer wrote in the abstract, because as Duke says, without knowing your performers, “you have no limitations, you have no problem,” by which he means you have no challenge. Ellington then gives detailed examples about writing for his very individualistic trombonists.

Duke gives an analogy to wood carving and then asks “You get what I mean?” Nat says yes, and the first side of the disc ends at 9:49. But keep listening because Side 2 continues at 9:54. Duke says “I’m glad this is on tape, incidentally,” by which I think he means that he’s glad that he doesn’t have to remember it and try to repeat it again. (And the original was surely Nat’s reel-to-reel tape.) He then continues on the topic of writing for his musicians, this time using the example of Rex Stewart on “Boy Meets Horn.”

Duke next recalls something that few people today realize, except film historians: When films were silent, before the late 1920s, the small theaters had pianists, but the bigger movie theatres had full symphony orchestras, and there was an international community of composers who wrote symphonic scores for films. He says that when attending those theaters, he would get ideas which he would try to adapt for his little six-piece group. Hentoff at 11:15 astutely uses this story as an opportunity to ask Duke about his own upcoming piece for symphony orchestra. It had been announced that conductor Werner Janssen would conduct the San Diego Philharmonic on April 12 in the world premiere of Ellington’s "Concerto for Modern Dance and Symphony Orchestra." The piece would have combined Duke and his band with the members of the orchestra. Duke responds confidently to Nat that it shouldn’t be “too much of a problem.” But apparently it never happened.

Finally, Nat asks Duke to tell his “bop story.” It’s a joke: A boy is pulling the petals off of a daisy, but instead of saying after each one “She loves me,” and then, “She loves me not,” he says, in bop slang, “She digs me the most,” and then, “No eyes.” Let’s listen:

More to come, as always!

All the best,
Lewis