Miles Davis: The 1974 Sy Johnson Interview Audio, with Unissued music, 2 of 2
Last time, and today, we’re enjoying arranger Sy Johnson’s tape of his hang at Miles Davis’s house in Manhattan. Johnson recorded this meeting on the afternoon of June 19, 1974, and he published two written versions. But nobody has heard this audio before, directly from Sy’s tape. It runs 90 minutes—we heard half of it last time, and today we’ll hear the rest of it.
Sivert Bertil “Sy” Johnson (1930-2022) was a very busy arranger in jazz as well as in the world of radio and TV commercials. We told some of his life story in the first essay. This interview was originally intended for the short-lived magazine Changes, and thanks to subscriber and saxophonist Jim Goetsch, I can now share with you that rare version. I don’t have the date for this—if anyone does, please let me know:
This article is different in many ways from Sy’s better-known published account in the Fall 1976 issue of Jazz Magazine. That one, “An Afternoon at Miles’s” (“Miles’s” is correct usage, as we explained), is attached here, as it was last time:
By 1976, Miles had stopped performing, so there is an introduction by Ed Lowe that was clearly intended to calm the rumors that Miles was ill, or worse. You will find it helpful to have this printed account in front of you when you listen to the recording, because in it Sy runs through the events of the day and quotes some of the conversation. Where I give page numbers, they refer to this version. It makes the audio much easier to follow.
The biggest difficulty with the tape is that Miles insisted on playing the music he had recorded that morning—loudly! This means, on one hand, that we get to hear outtakes of Miles’s Ellington tribute, “He Loved Him Madly.” But on the other hand, this made it difficult for Sy—and for us—to hear Miles, whose voice as you know was impaired. (As I have explained in two essays, and despite common lore, this was through no fault of his own, and he was deeply upset about it.) Meanwhile, there is quite a bit of unissued music on the tape, which you can concentrate on if you wish. In fact, you can follow it with the help of the detailed description at Peter Losin’s essential Miles Davis reference site.
I have wondered why Miles chose to create a slow, droning piece with flute as his Ellington memorial. It would seem to have no connection with Duke’s music. But composer and jazz historian Bill Kirchner pointed out to me that in fact Duke did write a piece like that, on his New Orleans Suite, recorded in 1970 and released in May 1971 (not 1970 as Wikipedia states). Let’s listen to “Bourbon Street Jingle Jollies,” the track from that Suite that was likely Miles’s inspiration, featuring Norris Turney on flute:
Now, to help you follow the taped conversation, here are some timings and how they connect with quotations in Johnson’s article. (Today’s section starts at the bottom of the first column of p.26 of the printed article.) Luckily, the music tape is at a quiet moment, and Sy begins by asking about some of Miles’s history, which is a productive direction, as it gets Miles reminiscing about his early days in St. Louis with Clark Terry. Then Miles talks about coming to New York and finding that the only cats who could really play were “Dizzy and Roy and Joe”—he possibly means Joe Guy, but Sy doesn’t press to find out.
From 4:00 on, there’s a long discussion that was omitted from the published article: They talk about Miles’s first recording session as leader, where Bird played tenor, and they tell some stories about Sonny Stitt. They talk about how Stitt, and even Mingus, were becoming set in their ways as they got older. Sy says he doesn’t like the recent Mingus album, Mingus Moves, but is glad that an original composition of his was included. He’s referring to “Wee,” a distinctive piece with two sections. (This is not to be confused with the bop tune “Wee,” a.k.a. “Allen's Alley," by Denzil Best.) Miles says at 7:30 that he used to rehearse with Mingus all the time in California. Unfortunately the music gets loud again, and it’s hard to hear what else he says. At 7:45, his girlfriend Loretta is chopping some food. They exchange a few words with her, and then Miles excuses himself and goes off for a bit.
When he returns at 10:18, they are back “on the record.” Miles says “I had to ask her what’s wrong with me,” and he explains that he forgets to drink water, and needs Loretta to remind him to because he gets dehydrated. This is in the article. (Page 26, middle column.) They talk about women for a bit, and that leads them to Cicely (misspelled in the article) Tyson. She and Miles were close, and of course you know that they married after he returned to performing in 1981. Sy asks him about playing the organ, as he does at times on the tape that’s playing. After this, at 14:08, Miles comes in on trumpet on the tape. (This part is out of sequence in the printed version.) Sy recounts at 15:20 a conversation he had with drummer Al Foster. Miles says that he loaned him a Fender-Rhodes keyboard and Al never brought it back. (Page 26, last column.) At 17:00, Sy returns to his recent recording session of music by Teo Macero, which he mentioned in Part One. At 17:34 Miles asks Loretta to call someone to see if the car’s ready—she doesn’t hear him, so he whistles and repeats it. (Miles explained elsewhere that he doesn’t intend to be rude when he whistles—because of his voice problems, he learned that sometimes he had to whistle to get a person’s attention.) Sy concludes his story by saying that he wrote a bass ostinato for Teo’s tune, and Miles says “See, now you’re [writing] around the bass!” (The entire Teo story, including the part from earlier in the tape, is at the end of page 26.) They discuss that type of writing for a bit.
Sy says at 18:50 that he was writing for a musical version of Alice in Wonderland. (That sounds interesting! I wonder if it was ever produced?) At 20:25 Miles asks the time and Sy says “It’s 20 minutes to four.” Miles says he’ll get his car soon and they can go driving. Sy turns off his recorder and then turns it back on—apparently after Miles said they weren’t leaving yet—and they keep talking. Miles’s Ferrari is the subject, and at 21:15 Sy says that back around 1957 in Los Angeles Miles said he drove a Mercedes. Miles interrupts to ask Loretta for a band-aid. For the next couple of minutes they jump between talking about cars and about the cut on Miles’s toe. (Top of last column on page 26.)
At 23:25, Sy explains that this interview idea came up because his “old lady” (in those days that meant a girlfriend or wife), Lois, was friends with Sue Graham (later Sue Mingus), who edited the magazine Changes. This leads into a conversation about Mingus and his health, and Miles talks about the bassist’s uncompromising and straightforward personality: “He’s a true guy,” as in “a truthful, direct person.” (Is this the passage that’s transcribed “fool” at the end of p.26? I hope not, because that’s wrong.) Miles continues, “If he doesn’t like the food, he’ll go like that” (throw it), and he remembers that once Mingus stopped the car too suddenly because a dog was in the road. For some reason this reminds Sy of Max Roach’s strongly negative reaction to Ornette Coleman’s music in the fall of 1959 (Sy gets the year wrong). At about 27:00 they’re back to the topic of Mingus, his early experience dealing with racism in an orchestra, and preparing the music for Mingus and Friends in Concert (1972, Lincoln Center). At 29:30 the music stops, so it’s easier to hear for a bit. Davis mentions Mingus’s former wife, and Sy asks if that was the woman who later married the president of Fantasy Records. (That was Celia Germanis Mingus, who married Saul Zaentz, who eventually had his biggest success in the film industry. Fun fact: When I needed permission to use a notated music example in one of my books around 1990 or so, it was Saul who faxed me back the okay.) Celia was white, and Davis says no, this was a Black woman whom he hadn’t met.
At 31:00, Miles laments about Mingus, the Jones brothers—Thad, Hank and Elvin—and other musician friends who he rarely sees. (This is the top of p.27 in the print version.) Sy uses bad judgement here and tells Miles that in fact he and Thad went to Miles’s concert at Carnegie Hall, and Thad walked out because he was distressed that Miles spit on the stage. They both ask Loretta for a band-aid again, the tape shuts off briefly, and when it starts again at 34:00, Miles, clearly upset, is still talking about this news that Thad left Carnegie Hall. That’s why I say that Sy used bad judgement in telling him that. But Miles still loves Thad’s playing, and finds it more creative than most, even more than Freddie Hubbard. He says at 37:30, “I’d rather hear Thad miss a note than hear Freddie make twelve!” At 38:20 he’s back to regretting that his peers don’t come to see him—only younger players do.
Loretta calls him to take a couple of phone calls. He explains to Sy that it’s about one of his old “gangster buddies.” The tape ends here, but Sy wrote up the last column of the printed article from memory. Although Miles and Sy had some rough and awkward moments at first, as you heard last time, by the end they had connected. Miles enjoyed the hang after all, and he invited Sy to come back the next day.
Here is the audio—Enjoy!:
All the best,
Lewis
Utterly engrossing.
Thanks Lewis