Sun Ra: An Unknown Audio Interview, 1965

Did you ever see Sun Ra in performance? It wasn’t at all the kind of super serious atmosphere that people associate with the so-called “avant garde.” Anything could happen at a performance by his “Arkestra”—“way out” free group improvisations, straight-ahead jazz with strong solos by tenor saxophonist John Gilmore and others, dancing, singing, marching into the audience, and more. The texts of the songs were mostly about outer space, and Ra himself (if I may use that as his last name) chanted or sang as well. There was an informal quality to the group, a kind of unpretentiousness. They were the opposite of slick—even the costumes looked like they were home-made. If you never saw the group, or even if you did, you will enjoy this half-hour performance that captures much of what they were about. And of course, even though Ra died in 1993, you can still see the Arkestra perform, with many of the same musicians. From 1993 until recently the group was led by its long-time alto saxophonist Marshall Allen—who turned 99 in May 2023! Subscriber Tim Scott tells me that saxophonist Knoel Scott is now leading the Arkestra. Marshall Allen is still involved but not making the longer road trips.

There have always been people who were skeptical of the music of Sun Ra. After all, he did claim to be from outer space, and his performances were built around a philosophy that is now called Afrofuturism. Some questioned whether the music held up on its own, that is, did the music have its own value even if one did not “get” the philosophical aspects, or wasn’t interested in them. Well, the best evidence that the music did indeed have substance is that well-respected and excellent musicians were very loyal to him and stayed with the group for many, many years. This included not only Gilmore and Allen, but trumpeter Ahmed Abdullah, drummer Clifford Jarvis, baritone saxophonist Pat Patrick (father of former Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick), and others. In addition, John Coltrane famously expressed his respect for Gilmore, and other noted artists admired Sun Ra’s music.

But in addition, Ra was a kind and positive spirit, and I think that comes through in this interview, which has never before been heard outside Sweden. This is from our ongoing series of interviews conducted by the late Claes Dahlgren. His script (for his narration) is dated August 2, 1965, so the interview was conducted shortly before that, and broadcast not long after August 2.

I’m presenting it to you in two versions. First, I have edited out most of the music for you so that you can focus on the interview. Then, below that, is the entire half-hour program with all of the recordings included.

In the edited version, I left in Dahlgren’s introductions to each part of the interview, but I deleted what he says afterward, since there he basically paraphrases what Ra just said, in Swedish. So, before the first interview segment, Dahlgren has just played a recording, and he says in Swedish that it’s an exciting and hard-swinging band for 1956, and that the music is not as strange as Ra’s mystical explanations would suggest. In fact, says Claes, his piano playing reminds one a bit of Monk. Therefore, Claes says, he had long conversations with Sun Ra, trying to find out a little about his background, and about his musical idols when he was young. But he learned that Ra preferred to engage in abstract reasoning about his music.

Sun Ra says that even as a youth, he liked anything that was sincere, and didn’t “pay attention” to names. But he does admit that he always liked the music of pianist-composer-arranger Fletcher Henderson, and was pleased when he got to play with Fletcher’s band. The reason this happened is that in the late 1940s Henderson preferred to serve as conductor and host, and he hired others to play the piano. Henderson was at the Club De Lisa in Chicago from February 1946 through May 1947, and Ra (under his birth name Herman Blount) played during the latter part of this long engagement, after another pianist, Marl Young, left to attend law school.

Dahlgren begins the second segment at 1:30, after a recording, by saying that he’s not sure that record was a good example of Ra’s music, but it’s all that he had at hand. His music has much more to give than that and it is worth getting to know. Claes asks Ra about his goals, and Ra explains that he seeks to have a universal appeal and to help people to be their better selves, their “impossible selves.” He says the Earth is too crowded, so it’s necessary for some people to move to other planets.

Dahlgren asks why Ra’s music seems happy and optimistic. In a statement that is very characteristic and typical of Sun Ra, he reasons that the world (human civilization, he means) is so bad that it can’t possibly get worse. Therefore “the only alternative left is for a better world.” When he said such things at a concert, he was very persuasive, very convincing. It made sense, and you believed it, at least in the moment.

The third and final segment, starting at 5:00, begins with Dahlgren musing that Ra might seem to be toying with us, but he’s not convinced that that is correct. After talking with him, Claes realizes that there’s a lot he still doesn’t know about Ra. He asks him about his connection with “free form” jazz, such as the Jazz Composers Guild. Ra says he’s not part of that movement. His music is trying to wake up the people. But he later says that he’d rather tell the audience “Don’t come.” I guess he meant that if he said that, only the people who were really interested would come. Here are the interview segments:

And here are the same interview segments but with all of the recorded music—the complete program as it was broadcast in 1965:

I hope you enjoyed one version, or both. We are able to hear this recording thanks to the generosity of The Claes Dahlgren Collection at The Centre for Swedish Folk Music and Jazz Research (Svenskt visarkiv). I want to personally thank Wictor Johansson, head of the audiovisual collections, and Jörgen Adolfsson, research archivist and musician, for their kind assistance.

Please Note that permission was given Only for the audio to appear in this newsletter—no other copying or publishing of this recording is allowed without prior approval. Let us all please honor this so that I can continue to share these interviews with you. In short, do not post the audio of this interview anywhere else—but do feel free to share the link to this page with everyone you know! If you subscribe and you received this by email, just click on Share at the bottom of the email. THANK YOU!

All the best,
Lewis