Thanks but I don't see how one can claim that, because after the quartet with Desmond broke up in 1967 (Desmond returned for a tour with Mulligan and Brubeck a few years later), Dave was more popular than ever. On the other hand, Desmond on his own had only a very small following and was never a headliner. As I said in Part One, jazz insiders liked Desmond best, but that was not the case with the general public. THANK YOU JOE
My understanding is that among the broader public Dave's popularity continued to grow. Desmond's fans were primarily jazz purists. But I did say in the second essay that the Brubeck audience needs researching before it's too late. THANK YOU JOE
I can understand the criticism on Brubeck’s style, even though I don’t necessarily agree with it. In my view, his playing makes a sharp contrast to Desmond’s soft, sinuous and melodic lines on the alto, perhaps allowing him to stand out even more in the context of the “music” the quartet plays.
I’ll search now, however, for any solo records of Brubeck to see whether he changes the style he played when with Desmond on his solo playing. Any recommendations would be welcome !
Dave's solo albums are very nice indeed and yes, very different from the way he plays with a rhythm section—more conventional, really. The first solo album, and still his most famous, was Brubeck PLays Brubeck (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brubeck_Plays_Brubeck).
That solo on 'This can't be love' makes me think of Philip Larkin's description of Brubeck's style being like somebody trying to close the lid on an overstuffed suitcase. He meant it critically, although elsewhere Larkin is quite positive about Brubeck, but it really rings true (and I'm a Brubeck fan myself)!
Jazz is supposed to be about each player developing their own unique and original style of expression. To that end, Mr. Brubeck certainly succeeded, as this article makes clear. Brubeck’s solos can be quite complicated in regard to harmony and rhythms. But I could dig Brubeck and his Quartet when I was 12 - 16 years old, playing his records over and over and singing along with the solos.
In contrast to Dave’s heavy and bombastic piano improvisations, he would be very sensitive and subdued when accompanying his marvelous saxophonist Paul Desmond.
I suppose the question is should a jazz musician be disciplined and controlled, or should they rely on stream-of-consciousness? Another option is should they curtail their soloing when they start running out of ideas?
I define hard bop as a soloist playing until they run out of ideas, and then asked to play another 5 choruses! I do enjoy hard bop and Brubeck, but are both curate's eggs--good in parts.
I didn’t think I would ever warm to Brubeck’s piano playing, but now I have. These excerpts here are excellent, and unlike anything I’ve ever heard. I’m pretty knowledgeable about bop, pre-bop, and post-bop, free, etc., but I can see now how my broad and deep understanding of the development of jazz language, which normally doesn’t fail me when I’m trying to make sense of an idiosyncratic player from any period, made it easy to miss what he was doing.
You’ve done a really good job of explaining how Brubeck’s improvisation approach doesn’t fit in any obvious way in the continuum. I can see why a lot of people would come away unmoved by all this, but I’m fascinated by it.
Thanks much for the reply. As I say, I can't "make" someone like what Dave does, but I'm pleased that I helped to open your mind to his approach. THANK YOU KARL
I think I am alone here. I really enjoy the solo piano recordings that he made in his later years. They swing lightly and he seems to enjoy the melodies that he's playing.
Definitely. I'll repeat what I wrote above to another reader: Dave's solo albums are very nice indeed and yes, very different from the way he plays with a rhythm section—more conventional, really. The first solo album, and still his most famous, was from 1956--Brubeck Plays Brubeck (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brubeck_Plays_Brubeck). THANK YOU JIM
Me too.Enjoyed them, that is. P. S. The passage abt what counts as ‘freedom’ reminds one of the old joke that Jesper Thilo, a Danish tenor player in the manner of Scott Hamilton tells: sitting in with a ‘free’ jazz group, they tell Thilo that as a group we play ‘free’, you know. ‘So, can I just play ‘On the Sunny Side of the Street?’ Thilo asks. ‘No, no, we don’t play that free!’
I assumed critics thought he didn’t swing based on his solos from the live records at Oberlin, especially “All the things you are” where he overlays blatant classical playing over swinging bass and drums. It’s not for everyone but it probably helped people at the time understand and appreciate jazz. A great and wide ranging artist who hinted at changes to come in jazz.
Yes, that's part of it, but as I say,it goes deeper than that, to his values which state that swing is not the only priority. I know you've written a history of early jazz--when you do a second volume I'll be interested to see what you say about Brubeck. THANK YOU FUMI!
The jeepers recording must have been in December as he seemed to quote Santa Claus is coming to town twice...I love his quartet because his playing and compositions create a mood or atmosphere, almost a pretty fog, which Desmonds alto cuts through beautifully...very relaxed and comforting...strange meadowlark one of the most beautiful compositions ever
Yes, that "..Meadowlark" is a very unusual piece--hard to imagine where the melody came from--it has words too. "Jeepers.." was recorded in October and he doesn't actually quote "Santa.." but the chords and melodies bring it to mind here and there, it's true. THANK YOU GREG!
Convincing discussion of Brubeck's thematic, rhythmic, and tempo treatments. Still, music is feeling. Probably my limitation, but his playing comes across largely as contrived exercises to me. Regarding his lack of classical training I hear the spectre of Bach counterpoint coming out of his "Donkey Serenade" quote on "Jeepers Creepers."
I agree about his sense of artistic balance. I heard an updated Brubeck quartet 25 or 30 years ago featuring an extroverted alto player who put me in mind of the side of Cannonball that came out of Benny Carter. Instead of his usual percussiveness Brubeck's lines were often understated and gentle. He had switched roles, assuming Desmond's laid back approach while the alto had taken over Brubeck's out front character.
Regarding the Smithsonian Classic Jazz and Piano Jazz record sets the choices were the work of Martin Williams. I knew Martin fairly well, discussed the projects with him a bit while he was assembling them. I had the temerity to wonder whether Clare Fischer was in the running, a notion he instantly dismissed. He did take advice from among others Gunther Schuller and from his close friend John Lewis.
By the way I enjoyed your quartet in Ventura a few weeks ago. Good turnout, well received.
Craig, I have seen some of the articles you've authored and it's good to hear from you. I have to say that even Dave's severest critics have never accused him of being unemotional! As far as the Bach references, as I said he did know some classical music, but was not involved in modern classical outside of Milhaud. and he was absolutely never a classical pianist. The alto sax player you saw was Bobby Militello. Martin was one of my mentors and I worked on projects under him for 15 years or so. I sometimes call that first edition "The Martin Williams Collection." You will be interested to know that he also solicited opinions from me and about 10 other people (see the list in the Revised Smithsonian)--but what he didn't reveal is that he almost never listened to any of our suggestions. I don't think you introduced yourself at my gig--next time, please come up and say hello (and please pardon me if you did and I simply forgot). I should be back again in May, this time in LA proper. THANK YOU CRAIG!
This series has been great Doc. I think Brubeck’s block chords sounded like a big band, which I appreciate. But it was hip at the time to dis that sound, hence the critics.
It was a kind of big band sound, absolutely. Poor Dave had a very hard time with the critics. I thinki my old friend Nat Hentoff was the most "reasonable," as I said in the first essay. THANK YOU RICK
Thanks for these articles. I appreciate Brubeck's originality and integrity as a soloist, but find his solos often maddening. One thing that I believe puts off seasoned jazz listeners is a lack of phrase-by-phrase interaction with the rhythm section. As you point out, he tends to embark on explorations of harmony and rhythm that diverge from the song's structure, but to do so he lets the bass and drums keep swinging underneath on their own, without having that collective back-and-forth in the phrasing that arguably is what generates satisfying swing.
What I saw in the video in Part I is that he began to smile and move when he rejoined his rhythm partners in a swinging beat at the end. I believe it's that return to swinging *together* that resolves his solos. I know that's how I receive it--and sometimes I become impatient for it! Not to say that what comes before is necessarily unsuccessful at what it aims for, but he has different aims than most.
Finally, I'd point out that in the latter quartet records, from Time Out until their dissolution, Brubeck's solos became more concise and swinging, I think due to their concentration on their signature arrangements, briefer than the multi-chorus "blowing" treatment of standards they did in the early to mid-1950s.
Thanks for these observations. Yes, he requires his bassist and drummer to continue on, undisturbed by whatever opposing meters and rhythms he places over their playing. I'm not sure if it's generally true that he resolves his solos with a return to swing, but I'll keep an ear out for that. I agree that he tended to become more concise towards the end of the original quartet, around, say, 1964 through 67. Most of the very wild solos that i can think of are indeed from the 50s through 1960 and are based on popular songs. THANK YOU TOM
I have no argument with your defense of Brubeck, however I think his popularity was because of Paul Desmond.
Thanks but I don't see how one can claim that, because after the quartet with Desmond broke up in 1967 (Desmond returned for a tour with Mulligan and Brubeck a few years later), Dave was more popular than ever. On the other hand, Desmond on his own had only a very small following and was never a headliner. As I said in Part One, jazz insiders liked Desmond best, but that was not the case with the general public. THANK YOU JOE
Didn't realize that. I thought the peak of his popularity was the early '60s.
My understanding is that among the broader public Dave's popularity continued to grow. Desmond's fans were primarily jazz purists. But I did say in the second essay that the Brubeck audience needs researching before it's too late. THANK YOU JOE
I really enjoyed reading these articles !
I can understand the criticism on Brubeck’s style, even though I don’t necessarily agree with it. In my view, his playing makes a sharp contrast to Desmond’s soft, sinuous and melodic lines on the alto, perhaps allowing him to stand out even more in the context of the “music” the quartet plays.
I’ll search now, however, for any solo records of Brubeck to see whether he changes the style he played when with Desmond on his solo playing. Any recommendations would be welcome !
Dave's solo albums are very nice indeed and yes, very different from the way he plays with a rhythm section—more conventional, really. The first solo album, and still his most famous, was Brubeck PLays Brubeck (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brubeck_Plays_Brubeck).
That solo on 'This can't be love' makes me think of Philip Larkin's description of Brubeck's style being like somebody trying to close the lid on an overstuffed suitcase. He meant it critically, although elsewhere Larkin is quite positive about Brubeck, but it really rings true (and I'm a Brubeck fan myself)!
Yes, it's a pretty crazy solo. And yes, Larkin could be very tough, for sure. THANK YOU HUGO
Jazz is supposed to be about each player developing their own unique and original style of expression. To that end, Mr. Brubeck certainly succeeded, as this article makes clear. Brubeck’s solos can be quite complicated in regard to harmony and rhythms. But I could dig Brubeck and his Quartet when I was 12 - 16 years old, playing his records over and over and singing along with the solos.
In contrast to Dave’s heavy and bombastic piano improvisations, he would be very sensitive and subdued when accompanying his marvelous saxophonist Paul Desmond.
True--still, you were a pretty sophisticated 12 to 16-year old. THANK YOU STEVE
I suppose the question is should a jazz musician be disciplined and controlled, or should they rely on stream-of-consciousness? Another option is should they curtail their soloing when they start running out of ideas?
I define hard bop as a soloist playing until they run out of ideas, and then asked to play another 5 choruses! I do enjoy hard bop and Brubeck, but are both curate's eggs--good in parts.
Ha--an interesting point of view--THANK YOU
I didn’t think I would ever warm to Brubeck’s piano playing, but now I have. These excerpts here are excellent, and unlike anything I’ve ever heard. I’m pretty knowledgeable about bop, pre-bop, and post-bop, free, etc., but I can see now how my broad and deep understanding of the development of jazz language, which normally doesn’t fail me when I’m trying to make sense of an idiosyncratic player from any period, made it easy to miss what he was doing.
You’ve done a really good job of explaining how Brubeck’s improvisation approach doesn’t fit in any obvious way in the continuum. I can see why a lot of people would come away unmoved by all this, but I’m fascinated by it.
Thanks much for the reply. As I say, I can't "make" someone like what Dave does, but I'm pleased that I helped to open your mind to his approach. THANK YOU KARL
I think I am alone here. I really enjoy the solo piano recordings that he made in his later years. They swing lightly and he seems to enjoy the melodies that he's playing.
Definitely. I'll repeat what I wrote above to another reader: Dave's solo albums are very nice indeed and yes, very different from the way he plays with a rhythm section—more conventional, really. The first solo album, and still his most famous, was from 1956--Brubeck Plays Brubeck (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brubeck_Plays_Brubeck). THANK YOU JIM
Me too.Enjoyed them, that is. P. S. The passage abt what counts as ‘freedom’ reminds one of the old joke that Jesper Thilo, a Danish tenor player in the manner of Scott Hamilton tells: sitting in with a ‘free’ jazz group, they tell Thilo that as a group we play ‘free’, you know. ‘So, can I just play ‘On the Sunny Side of the Street?’ Thilo asks. ‘No, no, we don’t play that free!’
Ha ha, that's a good one. Yes, I know Thilo's work--very nice. THANK YOU
Great articles Lewis!
I assumed critics thought he didn’t swing based on his solos from the live records at Oberlin, especially “All the things you are” where he overlays blatant classical playing over swinging bass and drums. It’s not for everyone but it probably helped people at the time understand and appreciate jazz. A great and wide ranging artist who hinted at changes to come in jazz.
Yes, that's part of it, but as I say,it goes deeper than that, to his values which state that swing is not the only priority. I know you've written a history of early jazz--when you do a second volume I'll be interested to see what you say about Brubeck. THANK YOU FUMI!
The jeepers recording must have been in December as he seemed to quote Santa Claus is coming to town twice...I love his quartet because his playing and compositions create a mood or atmosphere, almost a pretty fog, which Desmonds alto cuts through beautifully...very relaxed and comforting...strange meadowlark one of the most beautiful compositions ever
Yes, that "..Meadowlark" is a very unusual piece--hard to imagine where the melody came from--it has words too. "Jeepers.." was recorded in October and he doesn't actually quote "Santa.." but the chords and melodies bring it to mind here and there, it's true. THANK YOU GREG!
Convincing discussion of Brubeck's thematic, rhythmic, and tempo treatments. Still, music is feeling. Probably my limitation, but his playing comes across largely as contrived exercises to me. Regarding his lack of classical training I hear the spectre of Bach counterpoint coming out of his "Donkey Serenade" quote on "Jeepers Creepers."
I agree about his sense of artistic balance. I heard an updated Brubeck quartet 25 or 30 years ago featuring an extroverted alto player who put me in mind of the side of Cannonball that came out of Benny Carter. Instead of his usual percussiveness Brubeck's lines were often understated and gentle. He had switched roles, assuming Desmond's laid back approach while the alto had taken over Brubeck's out front character.
Regarding the Smithsonian Classic Jazz and Piano Jazz record sets the choices were the work of Martin Williams. I knew Martin fairly well, discussed the projects with him a bit while he was assembling them. I had the temerity to wonder whether Clare Fischer was in the running, a notion he instantly dismissed. He did take advice from among others Gunther Schuller and from his close friend John Lewis.
By the way I enjoyed your quartet in Ventura a few weeks ago. Good turnout, well received.
Craig, I have seen some of the articles you've authored and it's good to hear from you. I have to say that even Dave's severest critics have never accused him of being unemotional! As far as the Bach references, as I said he did know some classical music, but was not involved in modern classical outside of Milhaud. and he was absolutely never a classical pianist. The alto sax player you saw was Bobby Militello. Martin was one of my mentors and I worked on projects under him for 15 years or so. I sometimes call that first edition "The Martin Williams Collection." You will be interested to know that he also solicited opinions from me and about 10 other people (see the list in the Revised Smithsonian)--but what he didn't reveal is that he almost never listened to any of our suggestions. I don't think you introduced yourself at my gig--next time, please come up and say hello (and please pardon me if you did and I simply forgot). I should be back again in May, this time in LA proper. THANK YOU CRAIG!
This series has been great Doc. I think Brubeck’s block chords sounded like a big band, which I appreciate. But it was hip at the time to dis that sound, hence the critics.
It was a kind of big band sound, absolutely. Poor Dave had a very hard time with the critics. I thinki my old friend Nat Hentoff was the most "reasonable," as I said in the first essay. THANK YOU RICK
Thanks for these articles. I appreciate Brubeck's originality and integrity as a soloist, but find his solos often maddening. One thing that I believe puts off seasoned jazz listeners is a lack of phrase-by-phrase interaction with the rhythm section. As you point out, he tends to embark on explorations of harmony and rhythm that diverge from the song's structure, but to do so he lets the bass and drums keep swinging underneath on their own, without having that collective back-and-forth in the phrasing that arguably is what generates satisfying swing.
What I saw in the video in Part I is that he began to smile and move when he rejoined his rhythm partners in a swinging beat at the end. I believe it's that return to swinging *together* that resolves his solos. I know that's how I receive it--and sometimes I become impatient for it! Not to say that what comes before is necessarily unsuccessful at what it aims for, but he has different aims than most.
Finally, I'd point out that in the latter quartet records, from Time Out until their dissolution, Brubeck's solos became more concise and swinging, I think due to their concentration on their signature arrangements, briefer than the multi-chorus "blowing" treatment of standards they did in the early to mid-1950s.
Thanks for these observations. Yes, he requires his bassist and drummer to continue on, undisturbed by whatever opposing meters and rhythms he places over their playing. I'm not sure if it's generally true that he resolves his solos with a return to swing, but I'll keep an ear out for that. I agree that he tended to become more concise towards the end of the original quartet, around, say, 1964 through 67. Most of the very wild solos that i can think of are indeed from the 50s through 1960 and are based on popular songs. THANK YOU TOM