Thanks Rob for asking. Reese was clearly an excellent musician at teaching technique and theory to Dolphy, Mingus and others, and that is plenty of influence. But Lloyd does not seem to have been into playing or teaching "out." (I know that you're a musician, but for the non-musicians who might read this, "out" means outside the chords.) He recorded a little bit--most prominently on trumpet with Tatum in 1937--and his playing is clean, precise, and within the chords.
Thanks for your reply. The musicians spoke very highly of Reese, with Lee Young calling him "probably the best trumpet player in town." Someone I'd like to know more about.
The longest discussion that i know of about Reese is here, in an interview transcript with his former student Buddy Collette--he comes back to Reese a few times--read Tape II, Side One, and then there's a little more on Side Two:
You should ask Herb Geller, who’s still alive isn’t he? Who and What were they listening to in high school? Those two and Vi Redd were classmates at Dorsey High in Los Angeles. I’ve also occasionally wondered about Sonny Criss. He was born the same year as Eric, and one must assume they crossed paths on the LA scene.
Hello Graham, I did know Herb because in 1985 I was a guest artist at the university in Hamburg, Germany where he taught. He was a lovely man and a terrific player. He died in 2013. Vi appears to be still alive at 94. And good point about Criss. But, Dolphy sounds so different from his own peers that it's not necessarily relevant what Herb or Vi or Criss listened to.
I want to be very clear--my point is not about trying to "prove" that Dolphy listened to Smith and Williams. The Point of this post is to hip people to two innovative musicians who have been forgotten, who were working on "Dolphy-esque" ideas before Dolphy himself did so. I should hope that if it somehow could be proven that Dolphy never heard Smith or Williams (which I strongly doubt), this post would still have value. Let's not lose sight of the main point!
Lewis, I am deeply moved by the depth of your interest in varieties of improvised jazz and their practitioners. Here's what I can add to this thread: Eric also studied classical clarinet with Ola Ebinger (with whom I also studied from around age 6 to 8), so who knows what she exposed him to. Eric came to Ojai to play classically-based Ojai Festivals in 1961, playing Varese's "Density 21.5" for flute solo, and in a Gunther Schuller-led ensemble that played versions of Monk and more. During this time, my parents met Eric's parents and his mother told mine that sometimes he would play a single note all day. So an expansive mind early on. As to Lloyd Reese, I knew Wilbur Brown, who also studied with Lloyd, and my feeling from his recollections was Lloyd was pretty much harmony and melody, not out.
Also, the fact that the Dolphys lived in Southern California not from U.S.C., where so many classical powerhouses taught (Schoenberg, Robert Craft, for example), might have exposed him to a wide range of contemporary classical composers.
But I really like the discovery of Willie Smith -- who was on JATP LPs I listened to early on -- and Rudy Williams as probable Dolphy influences.
Wow--Zan, I knew you were from LA but I had no idea that you studied with Dolphy's clarinet teacher, that you knew Sadie and his dad, etc. Amazing! I've had a few people contact me who were confused, asking "So that's the only origin of Dolphy's style?" It never occurred to me that anybody would think something so ridiculous, but just to be safe I added "Some Origins" to the title! Of course it's well known that Dolphy was into modern classical, not only the ones you name and the Schuller recordings which I have of course--but also Hale Smith who as you know was a personal friend and mentor to Eric. As you say, my goal was not to trace the entire history of Dolphy's development, but to point out two specific alto saxophonists who have Not ever been connected with Dolphy' style, but probably should be.
As to your thrust in the post, absolutely spot on and clear: check out those two cats, so good factual nudge. And those two phrases you pointed out so sound like something Eric would play. I have not listened to him a while; back aways really dug those Five Spot Prestige quintet dates, and the final quartet Last Date (Limelight). But people's minds get sparked by these posts and lead who knows where. I like the added info. Yes, Hale Smith. When I was doing the Prestige liners, I talked at length with Hale, who told me about Eric's essential destitution, his addiction to honey, who probably was a deadly error since he was diabetic, and how Monk cAlled his forehead cyst his "knowledge bump," and told him not to have it removed. And, finally, as part of my earlier posts, Eric did come to our home during that Festivals weekend. My father -- who was the Festivals's treasurer for years -- met Eric and invited him. All I remember is that when asked what he'd like to hear, he asked for Ellington, a safe bet but he had no knowledge of my father's amazing, expansive record collection, with many great 78s. Could have played him "Shaw Nuff," by Bird and Diz on Musicraft, for one. All right, enough from me. Cheers.
Thanks Zan--glad my purpose is clear. That's terrific that you got to speak with Hale--you did a great job on the essay for that Complete Dolphy Prestige set (as did my friend Bill Kirchner in the track-by-track descriptions). I spoke with Hale about Trane once. That's AMAZING that you met Dolphy as well! Great stuff! THANKS!
You are quite right that there is a need for a substantial Dolphy bio. There are two short ones in English--one by Simosko and one by the British jazz journalist Raymond Horricks. I usually hear of works in progress, but at the moment nobody is working on anything substantial about Dolphy. Let's hope someone takes up this challenge soon!
Any thoughts about the influence of his teacher Lloyd Reese?
Thanks Rob for asking. Reese was clearly an excellent musician at teaching technique and theory to Dolphy, Mingus and others, and that is plenty of influence. But Lloyd does not seem to have been into playing or teaching "out." (I know that you're a musician, but for the non-musicians who might read this, "out" means outside the chords.) He recorded a little bit--most prominently on trumpet with Tatum in 1937--and his playing is clean, precise, and within the chords.
Thanks for your reply. The musicians spoke very highly of Reese, with Lee Young calling him "probably the best trumpet player in town." Someone I'd like to know more about.
The longest discussion that i know of about Reese is here, in an interview transcript with his former student Buddy Collette--he comes back to Reese a few times--read Tape II, Side One, and then there's a little more on Side Two:
https://oac.cdlib.org/view?docId=hb6g5010zj&brand=calisphere&doc.view=entire_text
You should ask Herb Geller, who’s still alive isn’t he? Who and What were they listening to in high school? Those two and Vi Redd were classmates at Dorsey High in Los Angeles. I’ve also occasionally wondered about Sonny Criss. He was born the same year as Eric, and one must assume they crossed paths on the LA scene.
Hello Graham, I did know Herb because in 1985 I was a guest artist at the university in Hamburg, Germany where he taught. He was a lovely man and a terrific player. He died in 2013. Vi appears to be still alive at 94. And good point about Criss. But, Dolphy sounds so different from his own peers that it's not necessarily relevant what Herb or Vi or Criss listened to.
I want to be very clear--my point is not about trying to "prove" that Dolphy listened to Smith and Williams. The Point of this post is to hip people to two innovative musicians who have been forgotten, who were working on "Dolphy-esque" ideas before Dolphy himself did so. I should hope that if it somehow could be proven that Dolphy never heard Smith or Williams (which I strongly doubt), this post would still have value. Let's not lose sight of the main point!
Lewis, I am deeply moved by the depth of your interest in varieties of improvised jazz and their practitioners. Here's what I can add to this thread: Eric also studied classical clarinet with Ola Ebinger (with whom I also studied from around age 6 to 8), so who knows what she exposed him to. Eric came to Ojai to play classically-based Ojai Festivals in 1961, playing Varese's "Density 21.5" for flute solo, and in a Gunther Schuller-led ensemble that played versions of Monk and more. During this time, my parents met Eric's parents and his mother told mine that sometimes he would play a single note all day. So an expansive mind early on. As to Lloyd Reese, I knew Wilbur Brown, who also studied with Lloyd, and my feeling from his recollections was Lloyd was pretty much harmony and melody, not out.
Also, the fact that the Dolphys lived in Southern California not from U.S.C., where so many classical powerhouses taught (Schoenberg, Robert Craft, for example), might have exposed him to a wide range of contemporary classical composers.
But I really like the discovery of Willie Smith -- who was on JATP LPs I listened to early on -- and Rudy Williams as probable Dolphy influences.
Wow--Zan, I knew you were from LA but I had no idea that you studied with Dolphy's clarinet teacher, that you knew Sadie and his dad, etc. Amazing! I've had a few people contact me who were confused, asking "So that's the only origin of Dolphy's style?" It never occurred to me that anybody would think something so ridiculous, but just to be safe I added "Some Origins" to the title! Of course it's well known that Dolphy was into modern classical, not only the ones you name and the Schuller recordings which I have of course--but also Hale Smith who as you know was a personal friend and mentor to Eric. As you say, my goal was not to trace the entire history of Dolphy's development, but to point out two specific alto saxophonists who have Not ever been connected with Dolphy' style, but probably should be.
As to your thrust in the post, absolutely spot on and clear: check out those two cats, so good factual nudge. And those two phrases you pointed out so sound like something Eric would play. I have not listened to him a while; back aways really dug those Five Spot Prestige quintet dates, and the final quartet Last Date (Limelight). But people's minds get sparked by these posts and lead who knows where. I like the added info. Yes, Hale Smith. When I was doing the Prestige liners, I talked at length with Hale, who told me about Eric's essential destitution, his addiction to honey, who probably was a deadly error since he was diabetic, and how Monk cAlled his forehead cyst his "knowledge bump," and told him not to have it removed. And, finally, as part of my earlier posts, Eric did come to our home during that Festivals weekend. My father -- who was the Festivals's treasurer for years -- met Eric and invited him. All I remember is that when asked what he'd like to hear, he asked for Ellington, a safe bet but he had no knowledge of my father's amazing, expansive record collection, with many great 78s. Could have played him "Shaw Nuff," by Bird and Diz on Musicraft, for one. All right, enough from me. Cheers.
Thanks Zan--glad my purpose is clear. That's terrific that you got to speak with Hale--you did a great job on the essay for that Complete Dolphy Prestige set (as did my friend Bill Kirchner in the track-by-track descriptions). I spoke with Hale about Trane once. That's AMAZING that you met Dolphy as well! Great stuff! THANKS!
very interesting. thanks for this.
I'm still wondering if there will ever be another dolphy biography. I believe one was published in France not too long ago.
You are quite right that there is a need for a substantial Dolphy bio. There are two short ones in English--one by Simosko and one by the British jazz journalist Raymond Horricks. I usually hear of works in progress, but at the moment nobody is working on anything substantial about Dolphy. Let's hope someone takes up this challenge soon!