Of all the musicians in jazz, it seems that the bassists get the least “props.” Most people just don’t listen to what they play. And the things non-bassists say about bass players are so superficial, either they haven't listened to them at all, or what they say is based on just a minute or two of listening to a single recording.
Thank you Gary! A great tip--I will check it out ASAP and I hope others will too! He did a LOT of recording in the 50s that i need to re-listen to--there might be a lot of gems there!
So great to hear this information articulated. It never dawned on me about slap bass. I had the good fortune of working with Milt Hinton who did this alot, but he is a little younger than Walter Page. I guess we can all take a page from Page.
Hi Jeff! Good one! Yes, Milt was the king of slap bass, for sure. That's great that you played with him. He was a guest in my class once and we played two tunes together--even though I'd heard him a hundred times on recordings, it felt amazing to hear him play all that wild stuff right behind me! Not only slap bass, but also plucked triplet fills.
"Starting at 1:50 he plays a written solo on baritone sax, alternating phrases with the band. That’s the only time Page recorded on the saxophone, yet another of his talents."
If I recall correctly, recording technique of the time was fairly basic, (ie a band playing live, in a small confined space, with no way to edit) so why would they take a chance of adding the difficulty of swapping an instrument mid-track when it could be dropped or banged against something and the recording would capture that audio rendering the recording unusable?
Wouldn't have been less potentially problematic to have a dedicated baritone sax player?
Hi Evan! Good question--but it happened the other way around--they did not need a bari player and were not looking for one--rather, Page said "I play bari sax as well--let's use it somehow, now and then." And in performance, audiences probably enjoyed the showmanship of him swapping instruments. Does that make sense?
That does make sense! But from a business and production perspective, I just wonder if anyone questioned the cost benefit analysis of having someone swap mid-track. Accidentally slam a sax into a bass while hastily swapping and that's a costly master going into the garbage.
Yes--but their analysis took into account "entertainment value," to which switching instruments contributes a lot. And in the studio, bands almost always did exactly what they did on stage--that's what they were used to.
That makes sense. If the recording was a way to replicate the stage performance more so than to document the track then they would want it to be done accordingly. Definitely interesting!
This was great, thanks! I think the truth is somewhere between Crouch and your examples. Page is often four--to-the-bar, but he picks his spots. When he's driving the full Basie band he's holding it down, but when it's down to the rhythm section he might mix it up. Even then he's more likely to chop up the rhythm for a turnaround or a final 8. (Check out "I ain't got nobody" from the Famous Door, August 18, 1938 -- from Savory Collection vol. no. 2 and the Mosaic set. After Rushing, Basie takes a chorus. There are some ensemble figures through the bridge, but they drop out for the final 8 [at around 1:20] and both Freddie Green and Walter Page shift into an aggressive counter rhythm -- almost certainly planned, I think.)
I take it that Crouch's point is that when walking Page thought in terms of 2-bar phrases when conveying the harmonic structure, and that like Lester he would convey the general direction of the harmony instead of outlining every chord. The rhythm section is trying not to fence in the soloists.
Most of Basie's bassists after Page stuck to walking bass, presumably because that's what Basie wanted or what they THOUGHT he wanted. But with Freddie Green holding down the rhythm, John Clayton would occasionally cut loose... but even then, it's almost always at the turnaround. (See in particular the live date ON THE ROAD, and how Clayton offers an independent commentary behind vocalist Dennis Roland. Clayton is more conservative in the studio, e.g. the 1978 Big Band + Milt Jackson volumes, but even there he does break up the rhythms.)
Thanks much for your comments and for your careful listening. I want to be sure that you understand that there is no middle-ground between Crouch's statement and mine. He says Page INVENTED all this, and I explain that it was a national trend. I thought I made that clear? Do i need to rephrase it? (It's not about any musical details, such as whether Page did indeed play walking bass sometimes or not, or when he broke up the beat, etc.)
I absolutely agree about the "invention" part, that's a complete exaggeration. I was focused on Crouch's point about phrasing -- and again, not agreeing that Page invented it, but as a description of his approach when accompanying.
On second thought, I hope you checked out all of my audio examples, which show that he did a heck of a lot more than break up turnarounds. Thanks again!
Nov 15, 2022·edited Nov 15, 2022Liked by Lewis Porter
Thanks for this Lewis. I did not know his name. Many bassist from that time period were what I called thumpers ( short staccato notes ) which many bass players carried over into the 50's, but not him. Very refreshing.
Thanks much for these examples David! Of course Blanton is really in the middle of a solo, whereas Page is walking in double-time as part of the rhythm section. It's not the same thing. So I rewrote that passage as follows: "Page walks in double-time. I can’t think of another bass player of his generation walking in double-time in a rhythm section. In fact, the only double-time bass moment from long ago that anyone has come up with so far is Jimmie Blanton in the middle of “Plucked Again," his 1939 duet with Ellington (thank you to David Perlman for this). But that’s a bass solo feature, not a rhythm section walking passage. And of course Blanton was born 18 years after Page, so he represented a much different era. It was Mingus, born in 1922, who would sometimes walk in double-time starting in the late 1950s. So it may not leap out at you, because Page is playing mostly scale notes, but it’s highly unusual, and another example of Page breaking up the pattern of four notes to the bar." THANKS AGAIN!
This is tremendous musical analysis. I've been listening to jazz for 45 years and this really opened my eyes (and ears!) to what made Walter Page so special. I subscrbed on the strength of this entry.
Thank YOU!
Thank you Gary! A great tip--I will check it out ASAP and I hope others will too! He did a LOT of recording in the 50s that i need to re-listen to--there might be a lot of gems there!
Nice! I heard them all, but many years ago--will listen again.
So great to hear this information articulated. It never dawned on me about slap bass. I had the good fortune of working with Milt Hinton who did this alot, but he is a little younger than Walter Page. I guess we can all take a page from Page.
Hi Jeff! Good one! Yes, Milt was the king of slap bass, for sure. That's great that you played with him. He was a guest in my class once and we played two tunes together--even though I'd heard him a hundred times on recordings, it felt amazing to hear him play all that wild stuff right behind me! Not only slap bass, but also plucked triplet fills.
"Starting at 1:50 he plays a written solo on baritone sax, alternating phrases with the band. That’s the only time Page recorded on the saxophone, yet another of his talents."
If I recall correctly, recording technique of the time was fairly basic, (ie a band playing live, in a small confined space, with no way to edit) so why would they take a chance of adding the difficulty of swapping an instrument mid-track when it could be dropped or banged against something and the recording would capture that audio rendering the recording unusable?
Wouldn't have been less potentially problematic to have a dedicated baritone sax player?
Hi Evan! Good question--but it happened the other way around--they did not need a bari player and were not looking for one--rather, Page said "I play bari sax as well--let's use it somehow, now and then." And in performance, audiences probably enjoyed the showmanship of him swapping instruments. Does that make sense?
That does make sense! But from a business and production perspective, I just wonder if anyone questioned the cost benefit analysis of having someone swap mid-track. Accidentally slam a sax into a bass while hastily swapping and that's a costly master going into the garbage.
Yes--but their analysis took into account "entertainment value," to which switching instruments contributes a lot. And in the studio, bands almost always did exactly what they did on stage--that's what they were used to.
That makes sense. If the recording was a way to replicate the stage performance more so than to document the track then they would want it to be done accordingly. Definitely interesting!
Exactly. THANKS!
This was great, thanks! I think the truth is somewhere between Crouch and your examples. Page is often four--to-the-bar, but he picks his spots. When he's driving the full Basie band he's holding it down, but when it's down to the rhythm section he might mix it up. Even then he's more likely to chop up the rhythm for a turnaround or a final 8. (Check out "I ain't got nobody" from the Famous Door, August 18, 1938 -- from Savory Collection vol. no. 2 and the Mosaic set. After Rushing, Basie takes a chorus. There are some ensemble figures through the bridge, but they drop out for the final 8 [at around 1:20] and both Freddie Green and Walter Page shift into an aggressive counter rhythm -- almost certainly planned, I think.)
I take it that Crouch's point is that when walking Page thought in terms of 2-bar phrases when conveying the harmonic structure, and that like Lester he would convey the general direction of the harmony instead of outlining every chord. The rhythm section is trying not to fence in the soloists.
Most of Basie's bassists after Page stuck to walking bass, presumably because that's what Basie wanted or what they THOUGHT he wanted. But with Freddie Green holding down the rhythm, John Clayton would occasionally cut loose... but even then, it's almost always at the turnaround. (See in particular the live date ON THE ROAD, and how Clayton offers an independent commentary behind vocalist Dennis Roland. Clayton is more conservative in the studio, e.g. the 1978 Big Band + Milt Jackson volumes, but even there he does break up the rhythms.)
Thanks much for your comments and for your careful listening. I want to be sure that you understand that there is no middle-ground between Crouch's statement and mine. He says Page INVENTED all this, and I explain that it was a national trend. I thought I made that clear? Do i need to rephrase it? (It's not about any musical details, such as whether Page did indeed play walking bass sometimes or not, or when he broke up the beat, etc.)
I absolutely agree about the "invention" part, that's a complete exaggeration. I was focused on Crouch's point about phrasing -- and again, not agreeing that Page invented it, but as a description of his approach when accompanying.
In that case you and I are on the same wavelength, for sure. THANKS!
On second thought, I hope you checked out all of my audio examples, which show that he did a heck of a lot more than break up turnarounds. Thanks again!
Thanks for this Lewis. I did not know his name. Many bassist from that time period were what I called thumpers ( short staccato notes ) which many bass players carried over into the 50's, but not him. Very refreshing.
Exactly--Thanks Dom and I hope you and Carol are well!
Beautiful focus on Walter Page! As to bass players double timing in the 30's, there weren't many for sure, but Blanton did (Plucked Again with Ellington, 1939: at 1:05 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mAqXNf1R6w and just for fun check this live Blanton solo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FN7m8iMBlQ
Thanks much for these examples David! Of course Blanton is really in the middle of a solo, whereas Page is walking in double-time as part of the rhythm section. It's not the same thing. So I rewrote that passage as follows: "Page walks in double-time. I can’t think of another bass player of his generation walking in double-time in a rhythm section. In fact, the only double-time bass moment from long ago that anyone has come up with so far is Jimmie Blanton in the middle of “Plucked Again," his 1939 duet with Ellington (thank you to David Perlman for this). But that’s a bass solo feature, not a rhythm section walking passage. And of course Blanton was born 18 years after Page, so he represented a much different era. It was Mingus, born in 1922, who would sometimes walk in double-time starting in the late 1950s. So it may not leap out at you, because Page is playing mostly scale notes, but it’s highly unusual, and another example of Page breaking up the pattern of four notes to the bar." THANKS AGAIN!
This is tremendous musical analysis. I've been listening to jazz for 45 years and this really opened my eyes (and ears!) to what made Walter Page so special. I subscrbed on the strength of this entry.
Thanks much Bob!