(Paying Subscribers, I have two unique audio supplements for you. This time I am posting them separately as Part 10A.) Last time we saw the famous TV performance of “Hot House” by Bird and Diz in the most complete copy available. You may have noticed that the host Earl Wilson asks, at one point, "You boys got anything more to say?” In the 1987
Well, Chan (she was his third wife actually) was the consultant to the film Bird and Clint Eastwood got her approval of scripts etc. So it was certainly her point of view. Thank you Jens.
I don’t think this question is about Earl Wilson as an individual. Calling white jazz musicians at the time “boys” might be done with some affection, even respect. It was and is never that within the racial history of America with Black artists.(Did Ella or Sarah get called a girl, I don’t know.). Note that Kid Ory answers back “Yes Sir” in that last clip as he knows he must. (And as the scriptwriters said he must). Who cares what Earl Wilson was as a person? Seems a nice guy. But he was continuing the racist hierarchy.
Of course Bird and Diz hated it. I cringe every time I hear Symphony Syd say “boy” to Bird. It was part and parcel of segregation and subjugation.
And in integrated jazz (visual) contexts, it has a different complexity. Maybe it puts Dick Hyman on the same naming level as Bird and Diz. But it doesn’t give Bird and Diz any equality that Dick Hyman was a Man (even a Jewish Man) out on the street.
And that older Black entertainers used it as you point out gives it no validity. Internalized behavior, using terms that they know will be acceptable within the racialized power dynamic of the time is no validation for calling Black men “boys.”
The far more interesting question for me is when did the use of that slight LEAVE acceptable mainstream discourse in the Jazz industry?
Hi Marty. I'm pretty sure that calling musicians of all ages "boys" ended in the early 60s. And yes, before then, on occasion Ella, Sarah and all other vocalists were called "girl singers." And, while i agree with everything else you said, i don't agree that Black hosts used the same language for Black audiences in order to be acceptable to any white people listening, which seems to be what you're suggesting. The use of "boys" for male musicians was Never respectful, whether used for Black or white--as i clearly state, it was condescending. But it was standard slang of the era. And, remember, I'm addressing Chan's assumption that Earl had "prejudice" against Black people. My point is limited to that, and Only to that, and the evidence clearly says no. Nevertheless, was he part of the racist heirarchy? Yes, yes yes, absolutely he was. THANKS MARTY
Thank you, Lewis! I never thought much about this, but was a tad baffled by this clip of Chan when I first saw the documentary in college. I had already heard this audio as the introduction to the recording of Hot House, which appeared on a compilation CD I had.
I seem to remember a discussion about this in the liner notes. If I can dig it up, I will repost here.
But I faintly remember that account of the “insult“ having to do with the fact that the announcer replies something along the lines of “well, if you want to perform some music, I guess we will tolerate that.“ I believe Earl says “I think that would be OK if you really want to do it” after Bird makes his comment about music being more powerful than words.
My curiosity is piqued on this vague memory I have, so if I can find the source I am remembering I will update this comment.
Hi Charlie. I don't know of anybody who had a problem with Earl's line about "if you really want to." But you're right of course that it's an odd line. However, remember, this was absolutely scripted, and whoever wrote it was not a great writer. It was meant to be a way—admittedly awkward— to introduce the performance, not to express a reservation about having the music. It was a variety show, and Bird and Diz were the next performers. THANK YOU CHARLIE.
I love hearing old announcers interacting with jazz musicians. It further frames musicians as forward thinking artists living in a specific time and place.
In other words, everybody looks and sounds so square around them!
I like these moments, which are sort of the public interface portion of jazz in public performance.
Sadly I'm sure your comment is true that Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie most likely faced racism every day. The facts you've presented Lewis are vital, and establish a clear perspective on the event. The music deserves this in depth perspective. Thank you for your work.
Perhaps the (previously) common perception of Parker's mood on this clip might relate to how jazz music is presented at the time, as compared to say, orchestral or European chamber music on television? I'm not refuting your assertion, I agree with you. I can't recall though a television show framing a classical performance with this type of dialogue in the fifties. The presentation of Jazz was still evolving, and perhaps the musicians are uncomfortable with how the art form is framed. I imagine Bird and Diz want to be presented, even on TV. How the artwork is presented here is what is awkward. And once turned over to Parker and Gillespie, the music sounds fabulous.
"That's Earl, brother" wow, I forgot that vital connection. Bravo!
Hi Jeff, Yes, your point is well taken. When opera stars appeared on Ed Sullivan—and that was often—I don't remember them being introduced in this kind of style. (The clips that I've seen online don't have Ed's intros, but i'm sure there are a few with intros.) I totally agree that Bird and Diz at this point were probably so experienced with this kind of thing that they had learned to just "get through it" —but Not to like it, or to approve of it. THANK YOU JEFF
I'm not questioning your assertion that Earl Wilson wasn't being OVERTLY racist. But it'd be interesting to compare this clip (and some of the others you've shown) with how musicians from OTHER genres (esp. classical) were introduced in televised settings. People who aren't overtly racist can frequently perpetuate racist norms. Heck, I'm sure most of us do it from time to time. I'm sure I have. And I'm pretty sure Earl did in this clip.
Yes, I agree. The previous commenter Jeff Rupert also pointed out that classical musicians were probably introduced differently. Even if Earl Wilson hung out with Black people in Harlem etc., he absolutely had unconscious racist ideas. He must have had such ideas, in that era. I realize that my analysis of "you boys" is a small point (for such a long essay!) but I am obsessed with getting the details right, because in the long run I think we understand racism and everything else better if we have the details right. THANK YOU SETH!
Classical music was on TV in 1952? On radio, where classical music was heard then, certainly yes, it was treated differently. But it wasn't about race -- classical music was seen as a much higher art form!
In the late '40s, a Swiss colleague, Hellmuth Kolbe, studying at a university there, proposed to write his thesis on J. S. Bach as a jazz musician. The topic was not allowed, so he never graduated. Hellmuth went on to make thousands of classical recordings for Columbia Masterworks over three decades. He played both piano and bass in small bands around Zurich. We hung out in jazz clubs during his visits to the States. Getz and Tristano were some of his favorites. In New York, we heard Roger Kellaway.
Hellmuth had serious music chops. He was commissioned for a vanity recording by a wealthy guy who wanted to conduct all the symphonies of a composer. The guy was such a bad conductor that the orchestra revolted, insisting that Hellmuth conduct. He did, and completed the project.
Jim—classical music was OFTEN on TV from the very beginning. Here is Toscanini conducting on NBC TV in 1948, one of the first of his many TV broadcasts: https://youtu.be/dr2mcEtCxnY?si=Ij-h0qJ9sKKjGYqo
And opera singers back then, as you know, were "stars" even to the general public.
As for race vs prestige, as in so many things, it was really both. Absolutely, classical was considered much more "prestigious," but there was also racism involved . Because the Black contribution was so essential to jazz—and pop music—many assumed that those musical genres were not as "good" as classical music.
THANK YOU JIM!
P.S. Your friend Kolbe was most amazing--I googled him.
Hellmuth was a young man as WWII ended, and was in Vienna. He applied for a gig at AFRS, and they sent him to the Musikverein (widely regarded as the world's greatest concert hall) to record the symphony. That's how and where he learned his craft. While in Vienna for an AES convention, I got to hear two evenings in that hall. It is, indeed, an amazing hall. It's widely known that halls designed for orchestral music are far too reverberant for rhythmic music -- the reverberation from the hall fills in all the time spaces, turning it to mush.
The Musikverein is the exception, thanks to the considerable amount of diffusion built into it's side walls, the construction of the stage, and other factors. In the acoustic sense, diffusion is irregularity of the wall surface(s), so that sound bouncing off the wall like a mirror and forming a strong echo, that diffusion spreads the reflection around. One of the performances I heard was of a traditional Austrian percussion ensemble, with a dozen or more historic wooden instruments that pounded together and to the floor. That would have been a train wreck in any other hall, but worked perfectly there, even from the last row of the balcony!
Thanks Jim for this. That sounds like an amazing hall. Yes, as is well known, even a great hall like Carnegie becomes a disaster when you add a microphone, an amp, and/or a drum set. THANK YOU JIM
You really bring fresh eyes and ears to this famous clip. I think your observations are persuasive. And I write as someone who was sure that Parker was glowering.
One exception to the familiar use of "boys" with musicians: Ellington always said "all the *kids* in the band want you to know that we do love you madly." In the 1930s clip of a staged rehearsal, I think he uses the word "fellas." "This is an express train, fellas" — something like that.
Thanks Michael. Yes, of course I'm not saying that Everyone Always said "boys." And Duke saying "kids" was putting his own spin on that, as he did on everything. THANKS!
I think the real disrespect, if there is any, in the historical use of "boys" and "girls" is rooted in the view of jazz and jazz musicians as a lesser art form (or not an art form at all) as compared to classical composers, musicians, and their music. And to a great extent, that's almost certainly due to ignorance of the extensive musical education, formal or informal, that it takes to play jazz, as well as an ignorance of the complexity of the music.
Absolutely. And to be clear, this idea that music was something that only "boys" and "girls' performed applied to ALL music that wasn't classical, not only jazz. THANKS JIM!
Both of the transfers of the sound for this video (that is, the one with video and the audio-only track) have been carefully filtered to minimize the bass content. This is exactly right for speech intelligibility, but bad for the music. I listen to web-based music with good speakers or very good headphones, and have a small mixer with low, mid, and high equalization (tone control) so that I can adjust for things like this. What I'm using is the least expensive thing I could find from a good manufacturer, a Yamaha MG10XU. If you have tone controls on your listening system, I suggest using some bass boost if you are listening for the music. (My perspective is as a retired engineer from pro audio.)
I would have liked for you to have included in your analysis the conversation between Wilson and Feather regarding how to greet the two Black geniuses. As a Black man, I've always found that exchange to be an indicator as to what was in that man's heart.
Yes, Wilson asks if he should say "Give me five" or "Give me some skin." Feather says those things change all the time (and he plugs Downbeat magazine). I'm interested in Your analysis of that moment. THANK YOU
That's a very thoughtful and sensible analysis. Thank you.
Thank you Richard!
I recall someone saying the movie was not about Bird, but about his second wife.
Well, Chan (she was his third wife actually) was the consultant to the film Bird and Clint Eastwood got her approval of scripts etc. So it was certainly her point of view. Thank you Jens.
Hi Lewis
I don’t think this question is about Earl Wilson as an individual. Calling white jazz musicians at the time “boys” might be done with some affection, even respect. It was and is never that within the racial history of America with Black artists.(Did Ella or Sarah get called a girl, I don’t know.). Note that Kid Ory answers back “Yes Sir” in that last clip as he knows he must. (And as the scriptwriters said he must). Who cares what Earl Wilson was as a person? Seems a nice guy. But he was continuing the racist hierarchy.
Of course Bird and Diz hated it. I cringe every time I hear Symphony Syd say “boy” to Bird. It was part and parcel of segregation and subjugation.
And in integrated jazz (visual) contexts, it has a different complexity. Maybe it puts Dick Hyman on the same naming level as Bird and Diz. But it doesn’t give Bird and Diz any equality that Dick Hyman was a Man (even a Jewish Man) out on the street.
And that older Black entertainers used it as you point out gives it no validity. Internalized behavior, using terms that they know will be acceptable within the racialized power dynamic of the time is no validation for calling Black men “boys.”
The far more interesting question for me is when did the use of that slight LEAVE acceptable mainstream discourse in the Jazz industry?
Hi Marty. I'm pretty sure that calling musicians of all ages "boys" ended in the early 60s. And yes, before then, on occasion Ella, Sarah and all other vocalists were called "girl singers." And, while i agree with everything else you said, i don't agree that Black hosts used the same language for Black audiences in order to be acceptable to any white people listening, which seems to be what you're suggesting. The use of "boys" for male musicians was Never respectful, whether used for Black or white--as i clearly state, it was condescending. But it was standard slang of the era. And, remember, I'm addressing Chan's assumption that Earl had "prejudice" against Black people. My point is limited to that, and Only to that, and the evidence clearly says no. Nevertheless, was he part of the racist heirarchy? Yes, yes yes, absolutely he was. THANKS MARTY
I HAVE CHANGED the title and the second paragraph from the end. Please let me know if it's more clear now. THANKS!
Thank you, Lewis! I never thought much about this, but was a tad baffled by this clip of Chan when I first saw the documentary in college. I had already heard this audio as the introduction to the recording of Hot House, which appeared on a compilation CD I had.
I seem to remember a discussion about this in the liner notes. If I can dig it up, I will repost here.
But I faintly remember that account of the “insult“ having to do with the fact that the announcer replies something along the lines of “well, if you want to perform some music, I guess we will tolerate that.“ I believe Earl says “I think that would be OK if you really want to do it” after Bird makes his comment about music being more powerful than words.
My curiosity is piqued on this vague memory I have, so if I can find the source I am remembering I will update this comment.
Hi Charlie. I don't know of anybody who had a problem with Earl's line about "if you really want to." But you're right of course that it's an odd line. However, remember, this was absolutely scripted, and whoever wrote it was not a great writer. It was meant to be a way—admittedly awkward— to introduce the performance, not to express a reservation about having the music. It was a variety show, and Bird and Diz were the next performers. THANK YOU CHARLIE.
I love hearing old announcers interacting with jazz musicians. It further frames musicians as forward thinking artists living in a specific time and place.
In other words, everybody looks and sounds so square around them!
I like these moments, which are sort of the public interface portion of jazz in public performance.
Absolutely. Good point!
Lewis,
Sadly I'm sure your comment is true that Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie most likely faced racism every day. The facts you've presented Lewis are vital, and establish a clear perspective on the event. The music deserves this in depth perspective. Thank you for your work.
Perhaps the (previously) common perception of Parker's mood on this clip might relate to how jazz music is presented at the time, as compared to say, orchestral or European chamber music on television? I'm not refuting your assertion, I agree with you. I can't recall though a television show framing a classical performance with this type of dialogue in the fifties. The presentation of Jazz was still evolving, and perhaps the musicians are uncomfortable with how the art form is framed. I imagine Bird and Diz want to be presented, even on TV. How the artwork is presented here is what is awkward. And once turned over to Parker and Gillespie, the music sounds fabulous.
"That's Earl, brother" wow, I forgot that vital connection. Bravo!
Thank you Dr. Porter
Jeff Rupert
Hi Jeff, Yes, your point is well taken. When opera stars appeared on Ed Sullivan—and that was often—I don't remember them being introduced in this kind of style. (The clips that I've seen online don't have Ed's intros, but i'm sure there are a few with intros.) I totally agree that Bird and Diz at this point were probably so experienced with this kind of thing that they had learned to just "get through it" —but Not to like it, or to approve of it. THANK YOU JEFF
I HAVE CHANGED the title and the second paragraph from the end. Please let me know if it's more clear now. THANKS!
I'm not questioning your assertion that Earl Wilson wasn't being OVERTLY racist. But it'd be interesting to compare this clip (and some of the others you've shown) with how musicians from OTHER genres (esp. classical) were introduced in televised settings. People who aren't overtly racist can frequently perpetuate racist norms. Heck, I'm sure most of us do it from time to time. I'm sure I have. And I'm pretty sure Earl did in this clip.
Yes, I agree. The previous commenter Jeff Rupert also pointed out that classical musicians were probably introduced differently. Even if Earl Wilson hung out with Black people in Harlem etc., he absolutely had unconscious racist ideas. He must have had such ideas, in that era. I realize that my analysis of "you boys" is a small point (for such a long essay!) but I am obsessed with getting the details right, because in the long run I think we understand racism and everything else better if we have the details right. THANK YOU SETH!
I HAVE CHANGED the title and the second paragraph from the end. Please let me know if it's more clear now. THANKS!
Classical music was on TV in 1952? On radio, where classical music was heard then, certainly yes, it was treated differently. But it wasn't about race -- classical music was seen as a much higher art form!
In the late '40s, a Swiss colleague, Hellmuth Kolbe, studying at a university there, proposed to write his thesis on J. S. Bach as a jazz musician. The topic was not allowed, so he never graduated. Hellmuth went on to make thousands of classical recordings for Columbia Masterworks over three decades. He played both piano and bass in small bands around Zurich. We hung out in jazz clubs during his visits to the States. Getz and Tristano were some of his favorites. In New York, we heard Roger Kellaway.
Hellmuth had serious music chops. He was commissioned for a vanity recording by a wealthy guy who wanted to conduct all the symphonies of a composer. The guy was such a bad conductor that the orchestra revolted, insisting that Hellmuth conduct. He did, and completed the project.
Jim—classical music was OFTEN on TV from the very beginning. Here is Toscanini conducting on NBC TV in 1948, one of the first of his many TV broadcasts: https://youtu.be/dr2mcEtCxnY?si=Ij-h0qJ9sKKjGYqo
And opera singers back then, as you know, were "stars" even to the general public.
As for race vs prestige, as in so many things, it was really both. Absolutely, classical was considered much more "prestigious," but there was also racism involved . Because the Black contribution was so essential to jazz—and pop music—many assumed that those musical genres were not as "good" as classical music.
THANK YOU JIM!
P.S. Your friend Kolbe was most amazing--I googled him.
Hellmuth was a young man as WWII ended, and was in Vienna. He applied for a gig at AFRS, and they sent him to the Musikverein (widely regarded as the world's greatest concert hall) to record the symphony. That's how and where he learned his craft. While in Vienna for an AES convention, I got to hear two evenings in that hall. It is, indeed, an amazing hall. It's widely known that halls designed for orchestral music are far too reverberant for rhythmic music -- the reverberation from the hall fills in all the time spaces, turning it to mush.
The Musikverein is the exception, thanks to the considerable amount of diffusion built into it's side walls, the construction of the stage, and other factors. In the acoustic sense, diffusion is irregularity of the wall surface(s), so that sound bouncing off the wall like a mirror and forming a strong echo, that diffusion spreads the reflection around. One of the performances I heard was of a traditional Austrian percussion ensemble, with a dozen or more historic wooden instruments that pounded together and to the floor. That would have been a train wreck in any other hall, but worked perfectly there, even from the last row of the balcony!
Thanks Jim for this. That sounds like an amazing hall. Yes, as is well known, even a great hall like Carnegie becomes a disaster when you add a microphone, an amp, and/or a drum set. THANK YOU JIM
From what I see of the stills, Parker looks more amused than angry to be called a "boy".
Fair enough. THANK YOU DAVID
You really bring fresh eyes and ears to this famous clip. I think your observations are persuasive. And I write as someone who was sure that Parker was glowering.
One exception to the familiar use of "boys" with musicians: Ellington always said "all the *kids* in the band want you to know that we do love you madly." In the 1930s clip of a staged rehearsal, I think he uses the word "fellas." "This is an express train, fellas" — something like that.
Thanks Michael. Yes, of course I'm not saying that Everyone Always said "boys." And Duke saying "kids" was putting his own spin on that, as he did on everything. THANKS!
I think the real disrespect, if there is any, in the historical use of "boys" and "girls" is rooted in the view of jazz and jazz musicians as a lesser art form (or not an art form at all) as compared to classical composers, musicians, and their music. And to a great extent, that's almost certainly due to ignorance of the extensive musical education, formal or informal, that it takes to play jazz, as well as an ignorance of the complexity of the music.
Absolutely. And to be clear, this idea that music was something that only "boys" and "girls' performed applied to ALL music that wasn't classical, not only jazz. THANKS JIM!
Both of the transfers of the sound for this video (that is, the one with video and the audio-only track) have been carefully filtered to minimize the bass content. This is exactly right for speech intelligibility, but bad for the music. I listen to web-based music with good speakers or very good headphones, and have a small mixer with low, mid, and high equalization (tone control) so that I can adjust for things like this. What I'm using is the least expensive thing I could find from a good manufacturer, a Yamaha MG10XU. If you have tone controls on your listening system, I suggest using some bass boost if you are listening for the music. (My perspective is as a retired engineer from pro audio.)
Thanks Jim!
I would have liked for you to have included in your analysis the conversation between Wilson and Feather regarding how to greet the two Black geniuses. As a Black man, I've always found that exchange to be an indicator as to what was in that man's heart.
Yes, Wilson asks if he should say "Give me five" or "Give me some skin." Feather says those things change all the time (and he plugs Downbeat magazine). I'm interested in Your analysis of that moment. THANK YOU