I’m really fired up about this topic, and I’m eager to see what you come up with for your history of how real time improvisation crept into jazz, and who pushed it forward.
I’m curious to know if you have any more specific knowledge about Ellington band solos that were repeated because of Duke’s suggestion. I read that Lawrence Brown played his “Rose of the Rio Grande” break the same way every night, but that’s the only one I recall for sure. I haven’t compared versions to see if Ben Webster kept his Cottontail solo intact.
I also recall reading a Hawkins quote suggesting that he would play on certain tunes the same way for years. My impression (or memory of my impression) was that he didn’t mean note for note, but more the general shape. But I wonder if maybe he did it with some tunes and not others. I have compared a bunch of Body and Soul performances and he definitely improvised on that one through the years. There’s a playboy jazz version that’s quite different from the famous record.
Hi Karl, Yes, i like that Playboy jazz fest version a lot and also the Eddie Higgins piano solo on that. But that's 1959. Hawk actually did repeat some of the phrases in 1940 broadcasts, if i recall correctly, but never the entire solo. BUT in general he's not a good example, because he was one who led the way toward a more free improvising. As for Duke, there are MANY such solos, but many are of the 8-measure type, not the long featured solos. Check out Steve's link below for "Cottontail." THANK YOU KARL!
Thanks Steve! Of course you're covering several subjects here, such as arrangements of classic solos, but the first part of your article is relevant to what I'm talking about. (By the way you might want to fix the Ben Webster 1962 which is the wrong place and i think missing the first 2 notes of piano intro.) Thanks again for your jazz history work Steve!
Hi Lewis. All you say makes so much sense, of course backed up by your careful research. It helps me articulate in my mind this dynamic: Armstrong blasts open a door of dramatic spontaneity, but he too has to temper it over the years to stay in the place the entertainment business which was his option in our country gave him. I like your placing of Bird as the establishing of a practice of open spontaneity, but he did it also within 12 and 32 bar forms and used his own set language, the phrases we know in solo after solo, to construct what I like to think of as one long solo. He finds a brilliant artistic/expressive solution to the constraints of the world he finds. It is of course much more than that, but yes, he blows the door open yet more.
Ornette goes on stage and only plays his own compositions which don’t use the forms connected to the earlier times. And I’ll stop with a Lester Bowie quote on the Art Ensemble of Chicago, a group that returns to extensive collective group improvisation at least in some spiritual connection to King Oliver. “We had lousy nights, but we had to have them to have the great ones.” This is fully the ownership of the improvisational Afrological process. Not better than what went before, but a needed artistic and political stance to keep that door open. We are all the humble beneficiaries of these visionaries.
Thanks Marty! Great quote by Bowie and exactly true. We have to take chances to get to the heights. And yes, free improv is not at all what the New Orleans cats did—that's a myth—but there is indeed a spiritual connection, an attempt to get at that group interaction, that group sound, but through an improvised process. THANK YOU MARTY!
The reference to Ellington and Karl's comment jogged a couple of memories. I've read that Ellington loved Ray Nance's "A Train" solo so much that he would not let him deviate far from the original recording. Even when Cootie Williams played it the solo came out quite similar to Nance's. As for "Rose of the Rio Grande" I recall a live recording where Ellington introduces the tune saying something like "Here's Lawrence Brown to give his entirely spontaneous improvisations on . . ." Duke's tongue was no doubt firmly planted in his cheek.
Thanks Allen. I'm going to try and remember where Duke says that--very funny! As for "A Train," check out Steve Provizer's article linked in his comment above. THANK YOU ALLEN! (P.S. I don't suppose you're related to the late Alex Welsh?)
Well, I found it! Cote d'Azure 1966, Verve. A closer quote than what I gave earlier from long-term memory is [Duke:} "this is totally unrehearsed, unprepared, no arrangement."
The logic based on recording certainly makes sense, but what I've seen for decades is that the public expects to hear that solo. My analysis is that both were true, and the latter dominant with respect to Ellington's leadership.
Yes, even Hawkins said that the public expected to hear Body and Soul as recorded, although he was not inclined to do it. But please do not misunderstand--my logic is not based solely on recordings, and obviously not on just this One recording!!--it is based on a careful study of mainly hundreds of interviews, recordings, written music, and more. I'm only using this recording as a way of opening up this topic. Remember, Miles's So What solo is well known too, WAY more well known than King Oliver ever was. Did Miles feel a pressure to play it at gigs? 100% Not. The reason: The aesthetic had changed after bop.
I do indeed know Mr. Bowman- everything he writes, from full-length books to CD liner notes, is indispensable reading matter for those curious about music history.
Because of this, and the fact that he is a fellow Canadian who has often appeared in erudite fashion on our national public broadcaster, he has been a major role model for my own efforts at writing popular culture history.
That's great. Yes, he's brilliant and not as well known here as he should be, except for the work i mentioned. I'm an animation nut --my kids enjoyed international animation while their friends were watching Disney--and i have both your books. Good stuff!
I’m really fired up about this topic, and I’m eager to see what you come up with for your history of how real time improvisation crept into jazz, and who pushed it forward.
I’m curious to know if you have any more specific knowledge about Ellington band solos that were repeated because of Duke’s suggestion. I read that Lawrence Brown played his “Rose of the Rio Grande” break the same way every night, but that’s the only one I recall for sure. I haven’t compared versions to see if Ben Webster kept his Cottontail solo intact.
I also recall reading a Hawkins quote suggesting that he would play on certain tunes the same way for years. My impression (or memory of my impression) was that he didn’t mean note for note, but more the general shape. But I wonder if maybe he did it with some tunes and not others. I have compared a bunch of Body and Soul performances and he definitely improvised on that one through the years. There’s a playboy jazz version that’s quite different from the famous record.
Hi Karl, Yes, i like that Playboy jazz fest version a lot and also the Eddie Higgins piano solo on that. But that's 1959. Hawk actually did repeat some of the phrases in 1940 broadcasts, if i recall correctly, but never the entire solo. BUT in general he's not a good example, because he was one who led the way toward a more free improvising. As for Duke, there are MANY such solos, but many are of the 8-measure type, not the long featured solos. Check out Steve's link below for "Cottontail." THANK YOU KARL!
I write on this subject and give a bunch of examples here: https://syncopatedtimes.com/codification-of-jazz-solos/
Thanks Steve! Of course you're covering several subjects here, such as arrangements of classic solos, but the first part of your article is relevant to what I'm talking about. (By the way you might want to fix the Ben Webster 1962 which is the wrong place and i think missing the first 2 notes of piano intro.) Thanks again for your jazz history work Steve!
Dang, Steve, this looks wonderful. I’m filing it away for when I have time to really dig in.
I’ve now checked it out. It’s a great work of scholarship, and a lot of fun besides. Thanks for putting that together.
Hi Lewis. All you say makes so much sense, of course backed up by your careful research. It helps me articulate in my mind this dynamic: Armstrong blasts open a door of dramatic spontaneity, but he too has to temper it over the years to stay in the place the entertainment business which was his option in our country gave him. I like your placing of Bird as the establishing of a practice of open spontaneity, but he did it also within 12 and 32 bar forms and used his own set language, the phrases we know in solo after solo, to construct what I like to think of as one long solo. He finds a brilliant artistic/expressive solution to the constraints of the world he finds. It is of course much more than that, but yes, he blows the door open yet more.
Ornette goes on stage and only plays his own compositions which don’t use the forms connected to the earlier times. And I’ll stop with a Lester Bowie quote on the Art Ensemble of Chicago, a group that returns to extensive collective group improvisation at least in some spiritual connection to King Oliver. “We had lousy nights, but we had to have them to have the great ones.” This is fully the ownership of the improvisational Afrological process. Not better than what went before, but a needed artistic and political stance to keep that door open. We are all the humble beneficiaries of these visionaries.
Thanks Marty! Great quote by Bowie and exactly true. We have to take chances to get to the heights. And yes, free improv is not at all what the New Orleans cats did—that's a myth—but there is indeed a spiritual connection, an attempt to get at that group interaction, that group sound, but through an improvised process. THANK YOU MARTY!
I like your idea that Bird is really playing one epic solo for his whole career.
The reference to Ellington and Karl's comment jogged a couple of memories. I've read that Ellington loved Ray Nance's "A Train" solo so much that he would not let him deviate far from the original recording. Even when Cootie Williams played it the solo came out quite similar to Nance's. As for "Rose of the Rio Grande" I recall a live recording where Ellington introduces the tune saying something like "Here's Lawrence Brown to give his entirely spontaneous improvisations on . . ." Duke's tongue was no doubt firmly planted in his cheek.
Thanks Allen. I'm going to try and remember where Duke says that--very funny! As for "A Train," check out Steve Provizer's article linked in his comment above. THANK YOU ALLEN! (P.S. I don't suppose you're related to the late Alex Welsh?)
Well, I found it! Cote d'Azure 1966, Verve. A closer quote than what I gave earlier from long-term memory is [Duke:} "this is totally unrehearsed, unprepared, no arrangement."
Very cool--THANK YOU!!
The logic based on recording certainly makes sense, but what I've seen for decades is that the public expects to hear that solo. My analysis is that both were true, and the latter dominant with respect to Ellington's leadership.
Yes, even Hawkins said that the public expected to hear Body and Soul as recorded, although he was not inclined to do it. But please do not misunderstand--my logic is not based solely on recordings, and obviously not on just this One recording!!--it is based on a careful study of mainly hundreds of interviews, recordings, written music, and more. I'm only using this recording as a way of opening up this topic. Remember, Miles's So What solo is well known too, WAY more well known than King Oliver ever was. Did Miles feel a pressure to play it at gigs? 100% Not. The reason: The aesthetic had changed after bop.
I don't misunderstand at all -- it's just that I'd never thought of the issue of recording during the 78 era.
Fair enough. THANKS JIM
I do indeed know Mr. Bowman- everything he writes, from full-length books to CD liner notes, is indispensable reading matter for those curious about music history.
Because of this, and the fact that he is a fellow Canadian who has often appeared in erudite fashion on our national public broadcaster, he has been a major role model for my own efforts at writing popular culture history.
That's great. Yes, he's brilliant and not as well known here as he should be, except for the work i mentioned. I'm an animation nut --my kids enjoyed international animation while their friends were watching Disney--and i have both your books. Good stuff!
Thank you for your support, Mr. Porter.